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I DESPERATELY need to work on my cash game against live opponents and I have this $3MM balance so I just asked this myself and Allen's response was that they think it can be done and they're exploring how.
Stay tuned
Syn
We will try to do this, but it is going to take some work.
First and foremost, we are a training site, not a live poker site. So before we launch this, we need to do some work linking the servers together to save out hands from a live cash game. If you can't replay the hands, there isn't any point. It's fairly tricky to do this and get it working right (we've had the tourneys going for a couple years and we are still trying to get the hands from that saving correctly all the time).
Second, the whole point of our site is that you can play a ton of hands really quickly using the simulator, and you can get feedback to learn odds, ranges, etc. None of that is possible with the live games. So while I think they are fun and good for social aspects, if used more than occasionally for fun they are a distraction from getting better at poker. Psychologically, there is a big difference between cash games and play money games. No matter how much you may think you play the same, you don't (and neither do your opponents). So I'm not convinced playing the live games for play money is any better practice than just playing against the bots. It might even be less realistic, and it definitely doesn't have the same training tools available. It is definitely fun and social, but I have concerns about leading customers down a road that may not be helpful for their games.
So we are going to work on trying out a cash ring game, but it is going to take some programming and we have a couple other pretty cool things we will be launching soon on the site that we need to finish up first.
Allen - I agree with your assessment above. You can play for play $ on Poker Stars. I like APT for the training and learning tools that it provides. As you indicated in an earlier post you are working on making the bots even tougher and that is where we would all benefit.
I have to disagree with one supposition Allen made above.
Allen said:
"Psychologically, there is a big difference between cash games and play money games. No matter how much you think you play the same you don't (and neither do your opponents ).
Syn replies:
In the various APT live tournaments I believe that the "regulars" are playing for bragging rights and, mostly, bring their "A" game to the table. While the game is for fun palpable intensity is present amongst the "regulars".
I fully admit that there are points in these APT "play" tournaments where I am as fully engaged as I am at ANY game I play for money. If you were to hook me to a heart monitor, if the pulse pounding in my ears is a checkpoint, I'm REALLY REALLY engaged in the moment. A counterpoint to that is when playing against the bots, who have no ability (so far anyway) to heckle my donkey plays I never get that intensely excited. APT's live players have no such compunctions and will, on occasion, go "SYNNNNNNNNNNNN what the hell??" Looking at nabilgedeon here. I deserve their derision usually if not always, since these days I know when I'm stepping out of line in advance USUALLY...................
As to other sites, I've played the "play money" cash games at WSOP and some of the other sites and with nothing on the line it's not the same I admit. I've found no style that works well for me against that sort of competition (so far). On APT the group is more engaged and plays serious poker, so I reply in kind.
So, while I fully realize, and accept with a smile, that play "cash" games may be well down the to-do/honey do listx of APT's future improvements I think it would be a worthwhile addition to the array of learning tools/games available here.
No rush on this, just saying...............
Warm regards,
Corey "synthesist" GImbel
I agree that the intensity of competition in the APT live tournaments is more intense for me. I tend to be much tighter in the live tournaments than in the bot games as I usually use the bot games to look at outcomes if I widen my range and change from TAG to LAG for some hands. I love the live tournaments and playing for bragging rights is not too far from playing for cash, which in the end is the ultimate bragging right in poker. I would love to see live cash games in APT, even if it would only be for bragging rights.
I also judge my progress in may poker game as to how well I progress in live APT tournaments.
LasV3gas
This is something that's a concern for me in general. Since there's no live casino near me, and I'm not (yet) on one of the online money game sites, my outlets are ClubWPT, APT, and a live game at one of the local "adult fraternal organizations," which is fun and competitive but doesn't exactly represent cutting-edge tactics -- and also the occasional live 1-2 game, if I end up near one.
And this isn't about complacency. But if I am playing with a table of people who just really love to call and see every card, there are aggressive plays I can make, but I found that I did better when I left behind some of my "anti-bot" strategies and just started value betting and really pretty much folding out to most 3-bets (i.e.: just assuming that opponents aren't bluffing). And I know that this isn't a realistic strategy on APT live games, let alone in a casino live game.
So my point, if I have one, is that I'm concerned that what Allen is hinting at is the "real" plateau. I'm definitely not confident enough to go up against the big guns, but I'm not exactly outclassed anywhere else (even if a lot of APT players play better than I do, I have the feeling that the differences tend to be incremental). I can't beat KGB level (although sometimes I do OK -- my record's not so great because I'll try off-the-wall tactics or just let off some steam by playing on the iPhone at stoplights or after a few beers). And I have the feeling that even if I were beating it, I would have to question whether it was because my poker abilities took a leap or because I learned a few parlor tricks that the bots couldn't hang with.
If I had unlimited money, I'd still read the books, watch the videos, and "work out" against the bots, but I'd try to find a coach and also go to a medium limit ring game or decent-sized tournament every day just to get my a$$ kicked on a daily basis, until I'd paid enough dues to be on the other side of the equation. I'm not trying to rush the process, but I also don't see where the combination of knowledge, experience, and (developed) confidence crystallize and form someone into a "complete" player who is knocking on the door of being pro-level outside of this.
For instance, Ed Miller in "The Course" puts ballpark numbers on the live game: most make a significant number of mistakes and tend to lose routinely/regularly (barring a "rungood"), a "typical winning player" (his words) might win 5 BB/hr. average over time at 1-2 or 2-5, "excellent players might double these win rates" (his words), and "someone like Phil Ivey might be able to quadruple these numbers" (although he admits this is speculation, since a top player won't really play low limit).
I'm really interested to find where my ceiling is in all of this. How do I do it, outside of hitting a 2-5 table every time I put aside $1k (not even counting the fact that I can't really take that kind of fluctuation)?
Mr. AllenBlay and community members,
I joined APT to learn how to play better poker and I assume the same for others. I'm okay with ring games on APT because I am most likely playing with people who also want to test their skills. If ever I get the sense that the people I am playing with in a ring game are not as serious as I am then will stop playing ring games and just stick to training. I've paid money to APT to learn in a safe environment with others. I am new to poker, only a year. So far, I've learned a lot from APT and I appreciate the innovative service you provide.
Greyhound
I'm coming to the conclusion, based on communal tournament play, chat with other members, and a few lengthy, rambling, snarkey/catty phone conversations with other APT members that being a pay/subscription value-added site creates a unique atmosphere where "shared purpose" unites the membership group. People opt in for a reason and gain the benefit, for free, of joining a group with similar desires and passions: to improve at a game with many correct solutions but few perfect ones.
Just thinkin.....
Corey "synthesist" Gimbel
I know this has been brought up in these forums before. But it would really be great if APT would activate the Live Ring Game feature on the site. I need live practice.
We are going to do this and we are working on it. The plan is to get this launched when we get finished with the back end adjustments needed which will probably be in October.