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getting out played?
hi hi
ok these hand discuss are fun
here is one....
$11 PStars Turbo-6 max
my hand: Jh Qs
position: BB
players: 5
blinds/ante: 400/800-100
Preflop: Me (14,772) with Jh Qs
MP folds, CO (29,514) raises to 1,600, 2 folds
I call to 880
Flop (pot 4,100) Kc Kd Jc
I check, CO checks
Turn: (pot 4,100) Kc Kd Jc 2s
I check , CO checks
River: (pot 4,1000) Kc Kd Jc 2s Td
I bet 2,200, CO raises to 7,200
(CO seems solid, little info {VPIP 24 -PR 18} seems play solid nothin crazy)
i fold... comments all this?
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Comments
It a positional and range thing for me. You may have folded the best hand but as it was played, that's a huge raise on the river to call with a weak 2nd pair. Most people don't bluff nearly enough there when led into so I'd give him credit for at least a K if I didn't have a ton of information on him. The thing is that you have a great hand to catch reasonable bluffs with, blocking the nut straight (AQ) and some likely hands of trips (KQ, KJ). The problem is that he had both the range and the nut advantage, along with position. Extremely hard to play against that.
If I were too choose lines, I would check flop. When checked back (was he c-betting a lot?), I could lead the turn with a probe bet or check again. If you lead and he calls, you are in deep water and I'd look to check-fold the river unless it was a J. You could barrel on any club as well if you bet turn and represented the flush. I don't know if you fold out many K's but he isn't raising you with less than a FH either. If you check, then also check the river and bluff-catch any reasonable bet for the reason mentioned above. I think if you check and he puts out anything like 50-66% pot, you need to call. If he over-bets the river then you need to fold.
Tough spot and I can't take much issue with how you handled it. Consider the probe bet but also know what you plan to do on any given river if he calls you. For safety's sake, I'm probably leaning more towards bluff-catching on the river than leading the turn though. You have a hand with showdown value that blocks many of his value hands so it seems ideal to take that line rathe than leading the river.
nods... i hate it and assume i folded best hand cries
i wasn't brave
will never know
You were probably not ahead there. The hands most likely to check 2 streets would be AQ (any without the Ac), TT and KJ. AQ would check with showdown value but made effectively the nuts on the river. TT would also check with showdown value sometimes and could raise the river. KJs is mostly blocked out but would maybe check to try and induce a bet by you. Again, I don't think most people have a robust bluff raising range on the river. Since there are more available combos of AQ than the other 2 combined, I weight my decision towards AQ.
Forget about hating it and assuming. Irrelevant to poker. Go open Flopzilla and do the work. Start with his opening range and your cards. Add the flop and figure out what he would bet vs check. When you get to the river, I will bet dollars to donuts that you are ahead of way too little to try and bet for value and that his possible value range is huge compared to any bluffs he may have checked twice with. The check-check-raise line makes zero sense as a bluff, especially on a board like that. Anyway, do the off-table work and see for yourself. You are reading way too many books and not doing enough range and hand analysis, IMO. Spending 30 minutes a day with Flopzilla or Equilab or ICMizer will be more valuable to you than any other book you could read.
boringggggggggg {ducks}
maybe i should play "Power Up" looks existing - get special powers! {ducks again}
runs go out on a date
Yeah, you better run. LOL. Do your freaking homework young lady. There are no shortcuts. Nothing in a book is going to make you suddenly play solid poker without doing the off-table work. Ok, so it may not be super-exciting but it beats the heck out of losing money because someone else did the work you didn't want to do.
In a Cash game I would have.....
Preflop: Me (14,772) with Jh Qs
MP folds, CO (29,514) raises to 1,600, 2 folds
I call to 880 I would have done the same but if I were feeling especially froggy about this player perhaps a re-raise psyche out? 2600?
Flop (pot 4,100) Kc Kd Jc
I check, CO checks I WOULD HAVE BET 1/2 pot, this would have made him have to reach for his balls if he has a pair OR maybe try to trap me. But hey, I have two pair Jacks and Queens. He could be holding AK but I would continue applying pressure. Pay to play. Maybe he thinks I am holding a pair kings, or jacks and flopped a set. What do I think he has? What do I think that he thinks that I have?
Turn: (pot 4,100) Kc Kd Jc 2s
I check , CO checks I WOULD HAVE BET 3/4 pot and hope that at this point I had his panties in a twist and that 2s would not give me a worry. It would give me a happy Dance.
River: (pot 4,1000) Kc Kd Jc 2s Td (maybe he thinks I hit a straight, maybe he did)
I bet 2,200, CO raises to 7,200 I WOULD HAVE Bet POT and CALLED his raise or ALL IN.
Krista, You really dont want to take any advice from me. I was just thinking out loud about one of the ways I would play this. Perhaps by checking so much you were signalling no confidence in the strength of your hand so he thought he could bully you with the bet? All that checking is so passive. Sometimes I think you have to be willing to lose to win. I am learning how to do more checking and sometimes (uggggh) min bettings. Trying to keep the mix going. Checking and Raising with weak and strong hands. Does she have have 10,5o or two Aces? WTF? Go get dangerous!
@cupcake - argh! I think @highfive should have a shot at your proposed play aggro-a-aggro but I'll make a few quick comments.
1) Why would you ever min 3-bet out of position with this hand? Anything but a fold by villain gets you in all sorts of hurt and the min-raise insures he won't fold. So you'll be playing at a positional advantage with a hand that is dominated by a lot of his range. This hand is too weak to raise for value vs the CO open and too strong to bluff with. That makes it an easy call.
2) If you lead out on this flop, that also creates all sorts of issues. In a HU pot, my checking range is 100% to the initial aggressor when I am OOP, like in the BB. This has many benefits. Among the most beneficial to me is that its simple and I can remember it
The 1st problem with leading is that you now have to create a balanced range of hands you will take that action with vs hands you would check. If you lead with all your value hands, then when you check, any mindful villain will know they can bet with ay 2 cards and take the pot. If all your value is a bet, then its easy to figure out that your check means you have nada. So, if you are going to lead any hands, you have to include some bluffs so he can't exploitatively fold. Then you have to come up with some value hands that you will check-call and check-raise with, along with the proper number of bluff hands you will take the same action with. See where I'm going with this? It gets complicated in a hurry and you still have 2 streets left to play out of position.
Another problem with donk-leading is that you tend to only get called by better hands. This is a win-min, lose-max scenario. When you have a hand and he doesn't, he can exploitatively fold and deny you value. When he has a hand, you now built the pot for him and still have a positional disadvantage. There are tons of turns and rivers that are going to be bad for you most of the time but if you shut your aggression down, he can steal the pot from you. If you keep your aggression up, you are still likely only being called by better hands and setting money on fire. So you win small pots and lose big ones. By leading with value, you also deny yourself the opportunity to call when villain c-bets. Most of the time those bets are with unmade hands that you would be happy to call. Don't give up an opportunity to collect with your value hands.
You may have realized by now that I hate the donk-bet more than I hate the min-bet and that's saying something. I am all for applying pressure but only when the combination of my range, the board texture and my position are superior to villain's. On this particular flop the villain has both the range, the nut and the positional advantage over hero. Leading into that doesn't make sense. Maybe you can do a little of this on low-stakes games if the flop was like 773 but even in that case I'd prefer the check-raise to the donk-lead. Nothing clenches up a sphincter faster than a well timed check-raise.
My advice to you and to @krista is to play around with Flopzilla and see how the dynamics of hands and ranges work. Create a villain opening range and then choose a hand you'd defend with. Let the software choose a random flop and see how that flop hits each of your ranges. Go through the hand, street by street and you will be able to see what hands should get to the river with whatever actions you select. You will see that on every street of action, ranges get smaller and more polarized (value and bluff). By the time the river is dealt, 1 hand has 100% equity and the other has 0. You will quickly learn what hands and hand-strengths are likely good on any runout. Spend a little time doing this every day and you will improve your decision making dramatically very quickly. You will be doing much less guessing and playing hunches. This is a game of incomplete information but that doesn't mean we shouldn't be trying to get as much of the picture as possible. As you move up in stakes, this will become much of the difference between winning and losing.
Well, that wasn't quick nor brief. I should get paid by the word
hi hi
home now date sucked... but got a nice meal and lots of wine hahaha
i love you guys, spend time to do this, and appreciate every word, honestly...
i believe there is no right or wrong in poker, its about decisions based on factors we consider at the time, we make our decisions based on what we thought was best...
could be my intuition or could be on Warlocks brilliant mathematics, or zillion other things
there isn't even a judge on our choices.. luck messes all that up anyway
i know i should spend more time on post game analysis as warlock so brilliant provides, and i do read over a few times what you guys say
Warlock $11 is low stakes to you, isnt to me and likely not to those at the table
part problem here was $11 nearing upper limit of my comfort zone, a next bet by me will likely mean 1/2+ maybe all my chips later on QJ?
on flop
my go to, is usually bet the flop, specially if get a piece of it and have some sort of EV / showdown value...
this guy is solid and has 2x my chips, to me my pre-flop 880 call is yikes...
what he betting on? isn't air and I have no reason believe it is
if I was deep stack and it was $3-7 thing, i would likely Cbet, Mr. Polk teach me bet into the raiser and usually bet the flop
I know @cupcake, but.... i out of position... if i bet ... would be what 3200 at least? what i do if i get re-raised? was a worry with turn & river yet to come
i remember think this cause I usually Cbet, BUT I OUT OF POSITION...
if its small, he calls cause he has the chips, my bet need be significant... maybe a shove?
my tournament life would depend on that bet
its like Dirty Harry... you feel lucky blondie... did i fire 6 shots or only 5? (does he have AA, QQ, JJ? gotta rule out K, KK, AK... likely no king)
my check is wimpy after flop, but i want see what he does, geeze position matters huh?
on turn
remember i out of position!
all i know is his check on flop, does shows weakness or he trapping me? this guy plays solid...his pre-flop 1600, he has something of value
if i in position yes maybe i take shot at pot... but he has yet to act - i yikes
on river
ok i take his 2 checks as weakness and i take a shot at it
i put him on a medium pair hope 99, 88, 77... if it TT take my money... can't be 22 he wouldn't raise 1600 on that? can't be K what odds of that?
if has trip K - why he check twice after i call his 1600? i not aggressor and he cant expect another bet from me?
anyway so i take a shot
he re-raises
isn't the REAL question in all this.... what villain think i have?... likely what i have or same what i think he has? I not represent 3 Ks with my checks?
he gotta think I have a medium pair, so i just pray it better than his
at that point I do think i have best hand
i too much a baby call find out... if i had do it again - i call
sadness is we never know what he had... but doesnt matter at all right? matters squat, all that matters is decisions I made on the way, and I think i made the wrong final one
all the math analysis after the fact @1warlock what means? in my poker lifetime i will never be in identical situation again, is too many variables
@cupcake keep ideas comin , i lose money most every day i play... i don't have answers and i hardly even know the questions
(thats why we have @1warlock @highfive and APT help us)
I LOVE THIS DISCUSS @1warlock and @cupcake THANK YOU...
helps so much and makes me think (hard for a blonde)
big HUGS
(waiting @highfive say: "Krista what the hell you doin in that pot out of position with QJ in first place?" hahaha)
Hey Warlock,
Thanks for that long reply. It was great. I will start messing around with Flopzilla and I also really, really, need to nail my Poker MATH. There is a really good flash card system called Anki which is an AI flashcard system that remembers what you have learned and retests you on what you are weak in remembering. I am a methodical learner so if you have any suggestions for combinatorics, pot odds, implied odds etc. that I could access to put into Anki that would be great. Through memorization I can aquire these skills as second nature. I know you know I like dangerous players and would rather make someone sweat than think they could just shove me around. I was born that way. BUT with that said that can be used against me ! I don't have illusions of grandeur but like pushing limits. I sincerely appreciate your suggestions BUT even while I am learning I would rather get smacked down in a battle than easily pushed over. Thanks to Krista for Posting this and everyone for the exchange. CC
Oh, Krista, how much are you grinding with the Bots? There is so much you can learn from them and not blow a stack. As you move up the ranks you find that you learn through repetition. Grind those hands and get tits of steel! LOL It also helps me with not getting uber upset when I get sucked out on and/or variance smacks me down.
The Hand:
Villain is 24/18 so we will give minimum 25% range in cutoff. It's shorthanded and he has a stack so he should be wider.
He min-raises which is bad. It gives BB odds to defend very widely. He should raise more generally and in this situation to apply pressure and win the blinds/antes.
Hero (@krista) is holding QJo in BB. Good odds. Good not great holding. This is a call all day.
Flop KKJ is a check 100% as this is not a strong position or holding. Bluff catcher mode activated.
Cupcake if this is you, you dont have JJ+ or AK bc no raise or shove.(17 blinds I might just shove a premium. Thats another subject.)
Check, Checkback good action for krista.
Turn 2. Good card. Unlikely he has ducks but he could. I would.)
Nothing has changed. Krista checks. Nice play. Checkback. Good!
River T changes everything! What does krista beat now? Answer: nada, zilch, zero, or 2 napkins.
A clear check hoping for showdown with 88 , A high, or random junk. Fold to any bet over 1/10 pot. Hero is short and cannot bet ,get raised, and be forced to fold. Which is what happened.
Villain played hand well if he has KK or TT. Otherwise he/she should have bet any K with trips, bet AQ to bluff with gutter as a back up plan. Bet any random junk bc this flop smahes his/her perceived range and to apply pressure to the shorter stack.
The T makes the str8 come in. The board is paired. Villain raises so apparently not concerned about any of it. No chance krista is good here. Good fold. (
TOS HAHAHAHHA
Anyway highfive, my question is this. How do you know that Villain was not freaking out when Straight hit and decided to get off the pot and go aggro? Not trolling just wondering. COME ON High five "Flop KKJ is a check 100% as this is not a strong position or holding. Bluff catcher mode activated." Not even one little raise for freak value? hehehehe
Thank you so much for your response and remind me to buy some WD40 for my TOS. Cheers, CC
hi @cupcake
yes you right i should be playing the robots more (plus its cheaper hahaha)
in my poker studies I now conclude to, become good at it need accumulate 10s of thousands of hands - experience
problem i have with robots...
~ there is no meaningful consequence, i can mess around, retry something else, i can take all the time in the world... maybe haul up ... EV evaluaters, Fold/Shove software, play around with range charts... doesn't much relate to reality? i find it hard take it serious when my real $ no on the line, and seconds to decide
~ i can't use my HUD and looking at those numbers is now a part of my routine each hand and one of many factors consider
~ i now find that, "game theory" (is that the right semantics?) so important to me in decision making... stuff like: why would he do that? what can i guess from bet sizing? what could his check or call mean? what bad guy put me on? i find that fun - like a mind game, me against the russian. With a robot hard for me do that mentally... its an algorithm and rather than those factors, i trying guess how would Mr Blay have programmed it within only general variables
~ i now, thanks to @1warlock, and @highfive I spend time going over and examining my hands within my PokerTracker system.. my real play for money hands go there not APT (could but it way to complicated make that happen)
you right i need do more robots , i do find the beat the pro ones super valuable
hugs
@krista said: "Warlock $11 is low stakes to you, isn't to me and likely not to those at the table"
Cut it out with this already. It has nothing to do with what I play for or what I think. It has nothing to do with where this buy-in fits with your bankroll. I'm simply using the commonly accepted bands of buy-ins to determine nano, micro, low, medium, high and nosebleed stakes. I didn't make these definitions and I don't use them to talk up or down to anyone. Its a descriptor, nothing more. If you want to look at what the bands of buy-ins are called, here's a link specifically for SnG's: http://www.sitandgoplanet.com/sitandgo/sng_strategy/Moving_On_Up_Buy_In_Levels_In_SNG.html
Krista, with the Bots I can tag where I failed supremely or won. Very important for when I review my hands played per SAVED session. Also, I strive through the repetition of playing many hands to correct my failings and also am putting together a poker math for morons learning system. Through repetition on the most basic level of "What do I think he HAS, and what do I think he HE THINKS that I have? I can make some pretty good assumptions. My biggest failing is my being too aggressive and learning to temper it with the value of checking and more passive etc. plays. I know my failings and need to become trickier and a more adaptive player. One trick ponies become no trick ponies to any smart adaptive player. With all that said, I am far more interested in going down in an a poker apocalypse than playing it predictable or safe. But where is that fine line? Thats my fascination or perhaps my addiction. How can I temper my aggro and become tricky and dangerous? Maybe you need to push your comfort zones or explore how much you can push your boundaries? Cheer, CC
Cheers, CC
hi @cupcake
i hear yah about being overly aggressive
i for sure was... came from the mantra echoed everywhere ... "aggression wins" watching TV replays of a guy shove with air and getting any medium pair to fold
problem is in most real online events you get like 1500 chips if that... blinds go up every 5-10 minutes
so ok i be aggressive... unless you successful early you short stacked after try a move
4xbb... cbet... maybe a barrel ... whoops you short stacked
if you like play a LAG game, boredom factor sets in, isnt like play robots just "playable hands"
i aggressive but need fold about every 4-5 hands
5 orbits and yikes you at danger blinds
so yah finally you get excited see 99 or AJ cause you havent had a playable hand in a long long time
then get aggressive and whoops ... end of it